Copyright © 2008 by M. K. Asante, Jr. All rights reser
Printed in the United States of America. For information, address St. ~artin's Press,
Fifth Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10010.
IT's BIGGER THAN HIP HOP.
www.stmartins.com
Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data
Asante, Molefi K., 1981lt's bigger than hip hop: the rise of the post-hip-hop generation I
M. K. Asante, Jr.-1st ed.
p. em.
Includes bibliographical references and index.
ISBN-13: 978-0-312-37326-9
ISBN-10: 0-312-37326-0
1. Mrican Americans-Social conditions. 2. Mrican Americans-Intellectual
life. 3. Mrican Americans in popular culture. 4. Mrican Americans-Race
identity. 5. Popular culture-United States. 6. Hip hop-United States.
7. Rap (Music)-History and criticism. 8. Music-Social aspects-United
States. 9. Mrican American youth-Attitudes. I. Title.
E185.6l.A725 2008
305.235089'96073-dc22
2008019523
First Edition: September 2008
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A ghetto can be improved in only one way:
out of existence.
-JAMES BALDWIN
rst off, thanks for granting me this interview.
o problem. It's time for me to set the record straight.
out . . . ?
out me. Who I am. And actually, more importantly, why I am who
m.
See, people who live in me know me on an intimate and visceral
el, while people who live elsewhere probably know what I look like.
Which people?
All types of people: brilliant, courageous, beautiful, crazy, funny,
ented, strong, injured, soulful. All types. Geeks. Shoemakers. Sc
ars. Comedians. Athletes. Scientists. Lovers. The whole spectrum.
The common denominator is that they're economically poor
Mrican-American.
I'm curious about your name, "Ghetto." What does it mean? Where does i
come from?
Linguists trace it back to the I tal ian words ''getto " (to cast off)
"borghetto" (small neighborhood), the Venetian slang "gheto,"
Griko ''ghetonia" (neighborhood), and the Hebrew word ''get" (bil
divorce).
The first time my name was written was when English traveler
writer Thomas Coryat, on a foot journey through Europe, descri
"the place where the whole fraternity of the Jews dwelleth togeth
which is called the Ghetto."
And what year was that?
1611.
Early in its usage it meant a walled-off and gated section in ci
where Jews were confined. The word was mostly used in Italy, n
port cities like Venice where a lot of Jews lived and worked. Jews w
IGGER THAN HIP HOP
35
d under strict regulations, forced to live together, and put on
ws that prevented them from being out at certain times. As if
wasn't enough, sumptuary laws forced Jews to wear special stared yellow badges and yellow berets, identifying themselves as
and opening themselves up to taunts and attacks by Christians
were the majority.
. Did other writers back in the day write about your name?
, lots. In 1879, British writer Dean Farrar writes about the ghetto
ife of St. Paul. Edward Dowden, a nineteenth-century literary
, makes many references to ghettos in his analysis of Percy Bysshe
ey. British author Israel Zangwill wrote the books Children of the
to and Dreamers of the Ghetto, both biographical studies. In 1908,
London in Martin Eden explains that his characters "plunged off
into the heart of the working-class ghetto." Despite its usage by
writers, it wasn't widely discussed or popular.
did it become widely known?
word blew up in the mid-1930s when the Nazis took power and
p ghettos that, just like in previous times, confined Jews into
ped, tightly packed areas of the inner cities of Eastern Europe.
ever, unlike previous ghettos in Europe, these ghettos were imrished, overcrowded, and disease-plagued areas enclosed by stone
ick walls, wooden fences, and barbed wire. And, if Jews tried to
Of course. Take the Warsaw ghetto, as an example of institution
overcrowding, where Jews, who were 30 percent of the populatio
were forced to live in 2.4 percent of the city's area-about ten peop
per room. Most apartments had no sanitation, piped water, or sewe
Starvation was rife.
So, similarly, during my birth in America, Urban Renewal (whic
behind closed doors, was called "nigger removal") was all about sy
tematically uprooting Blacks from sections of the city deemed "val
able," then forcing them into projects. For every ten homes that th
destroyed, they only built one new unit in the projects-institution
overcrowding.
Many things are the same: the social isolation; the normalized te
ror by authorities; and state-sponsored racism, to name a few.
And what about other ghettos around the world-do you see yourself as
related to them?
Of course. Every .ghetto-from Soweto to L'!le-Saint-Denis, fro
Brixton to Chiapas, from favelas to shantytowns-! am one with.
Why?
'Cause oppression is oppression is oppression, man.
11
Some people say that you're a ttstate of mind ?
Which people?
BIGGER THAN HIP HOP
37
survival is a state of mind. That's where soul comes from.
hat's soul?
is graceful survival against impossible circumstances.
's heavy. All right now, can you talk about your roots as the Black
ican ghetto?
nitely.
ll right, so, 40 Acres & A Mule is not just the name of Spike Lee's
company, it's also the colloquial term for the reparations that
supposed to be issued to enslaved Mricans after the Civil Waracres of farmland and a mule to cultivate that land. The official
e was Special Field Orders, No. 15, and it was issued on January
865, by Maj. Gen. William Sherman.
hat happened?
, when President Abraham Lincoln was killed, Andrew Johnson,
eplacement, revoked Sherman's orders. The very few Blacks who
already received land had it quickly taken away.
bolishing slavery with no restitution is like opening the door to a
n cell, while leaving all other exits bolted, chained, and locked,
telling an inmate that "they are free." The cell door, although
less than 5 percent of industrial northern cities like Detroit, Chic
Philadelphia, et cetera. Blacks in the North, because of racism
discrimination, weren't allowed to work in factories or join uni
which reduced them to the lowest, dirtiest, grimiest, nastiest jo
jobs no one else would do.
Beginning around 1914, though, large numbers of Blacks sta
moving to industrial hubs like New York City, Philadelphia, B
more, Maryland, Detroit, Chicago, etcetera.
Because things were so bad in the South?
It was "so bad" everywhere. But mainly because World War I, w
began in 1914, called for a lot of unskilled factory workers.
you know when America needs weapons, they don't care who m
' em.
Blacks kept coming North, looking for work, even after the
was over. During the twenties alone, over two million Blacks c
North in hopes of a better life. You had a lot of Blacks looking
work in an already impossible job market, then the Depression h
But that affected pretty much everybody, right?
Yeah, everybody was affected. But while everybody was affected,
must remember: Blacks were the first to get fired when things got
and the last ones to get hired once things finally picked up. But
'S BIGGER THAN HIP HOP
39
asn't the worst of it by any stretch of the imagination. What hapened next was unconscionable:
President Franklin D. Roosevelt cut Black people out of his plan to
lleviate the poverty of the national Depression.
ow?
t was clear that Social Security-which provided benefits to retirees
nd the unemployed, and a lump-sum benefit at death-and Mandaory Minimum Insurance were proven methods of reducing and alleiating poverty.
Roosevelt drafted these programs under his Committee on Ecoomic Security, and they were passed by Congress under his New
eal. One of the major problems was that both of these acts exluded domestics and agricultural workers, who made up more than
wo-thirds of the Black workforce. Then with all ofan you-
an you let me finish?
y bad.
haven't even got to the worst part yet.
ll right, please continue.
The catch was that the FHA refused to guarantee mortgage
Black communities due to a process called redlining. In mos
these places, Blacks couldn't receive loans at all. Once the FHA
fused to give loans to Blacks, private lenders replicated the gov
ment's policy and position, which, really, was about denying B
humanity.
Can you talk about what redlining is and how it affected you?
The term "redlining" was coined in the 1960s by activists in Chic
It refers to a process where affluent or white neighborhoods were
lined in blue and considered type "A"; working class neighborh
were outlined in yellow and considered type "B"; and of course, B
neighborhoods were outlined in bloodred ink and considered
"D." These maps were created for FHA manuals as well as pr
lenders. The FHA advised banks to stay away from areas with "in
monious racial groups" and recommended that municipalities e
racially restrictive zoning ordinances and prevent Black home
ership.
During the second great migration (1940-1970), when 4.5 mi
Blacks came North, industrial cities decided to segregate the in
trial from the residential areas. Remember, during this time, B
had absolutely no political power and overt racism was at an all-
high. Therefore many Black areas were tagged as industrial neigh
hoods.
S BIGGER THAN HIP HOP
41
d what did that industrial tag mean?
e industrial tag prevented these neighborhoods from undergoing
y new construction and even limited the improvements that could
made.
, why didn't Blacks just leave these red lined areas?
ose redlined areas were me. I told you earlier that I'm a place
ere people are forced to live, because of discrimination via racism
the real estate market and segregation. Blacks could not, I repeat
uld not, live where they pleased, even if they had the money, and
cause of those things I ju~t mentioned, they probably didn't.
you've been around for a long time?
ell yes, but I didn't always look like I do now.
See, during the sixties and before, Blacks, although segregated and
lated, lived in me very viably. I was anchored by Black-owned busisses and Black-run institutions. Believe it or not, "crime" during
s period was not a problem in me. But then ...
ck?
hoa-not yet, slow down. That's later.
Way before crack, there was "nigger removal," as it was sometimes
lled by government officials.
I mean forced out. Eminent domain, the process whereby the s
seizes private property for government or private use, gives the g
ernment the authority to jack residents.
Where did the displaced Blacks go?
Uncle Sam decided that they needed to construct new areas for th
displaced Blacks to live. So they built shabby, health-hazardous, ch
housing in me called housing projects.
For every ten homes they destroyed, they built one unit in
projects.
So is this why you are the way you are today?
Not quite-there are a few more things that happened to me t
I feel contributed significantly to who I am today.
On top of "nigger removal," the federal interstate system ha
devastating effect on me physically and psychologically. Whe
wasn't razed for Urban Renewal, they would build highways t
went right through me and separated my people from others. T
created further isolation for Blacks and it simultaneously created
sulation for whites as they fled to the suburbs.
Thanks to these new highways, though, whites could get i
the city when they needed to. Between 1950 and 1970, 70 mill
whites fled the city and moved to the suburbs. The reason this wh
flight was so devastating is that whites took jobs with them wh
BIGGER
HIP
43
left and eventually moved businesses out of me and into the
urbs.
oon after, the factories left, too. See, post-World War II the facs had been one of the primary ways for Blacks to climb out of
quicksand of poverty. However, those jobs fled with the whites.
he suburbs?
overseas. Multinational corporations got out of me and headed for
es like India, Indonesia, and other impoverished nations of the
ld. Places where the wages are dramatically less, unions are illegal,
e are no environmental or labor laws. So, they've got twelve-yearworking sixteen hours, making pennies per day. When companies
't go overseas, they use prison labor instead of creating real jobs,
ch is, in essence, slave labor. I mean, the rates they pay prisoners
s what they might pay a child in an impoverished country.
r corporations do this?
rican Airlines, Boeing, Compaq, Dell, Eddie Bauer, Chevron,
lett-Packard, Honeywell, IBM, JCPenney, TWA, McDonald's,
rosoft, Motorola, Nordstrom, Pierre Cardin, Revlon, Sony, Texas
ruments, Victoria's Secret, and Toys "R" Us, to name a few.
addition, the mechanization of many low-skilled jobs left a lot
eople well below the poverty line. So jobs in the domestic and ser-
Which one?
It's called "Message to the Grassroots." He says,
This modern house Negro loves his master. He wants to live near
him. He'll pay three times as much as the house is worth just to liv
near his master, and then brag about ''I'm the only Negro out here
''I'm the only one on my job. " "I'm the only one in this school. "
You're nothing but a house Negro. And if someone comes to you
right now and says, "Let's separate," you say the same thing that th
house Negro said on the plantation. "What you mean, separate?
From America? This good white man? Where you going to get a
better job than you get here?" I mean, this is what you say. ''J ain'
left nothing in Africa," that's what you say. You left your mind in
Africa.
[A chuckle is shared]
I know this is kind of off topic, but I gotta ask: Why are there so many d
check-cashing places, liquor stores, and take-out Chinese restauran
you?
Actually, not off topic at all. I just told you that the Black mi
class fled. Well, when affluent Blacks left me and bounced to
suburbs, the businesses, following the money, left, too. To give y
popular example, there were, during segregation, more than t
BIGGER THAN
HOP
45
dred Black movie houses around the country. You're a filmmaker,
t? Tell me how many are there now.
y, let's see, urn-
ctly.
o with the flight or destruction of viable Black businesses, that
only the businesses you mentioned-the businesses whose priy goal is to capitalize on Black poverty. Check-cashing spots capze and exploit low-wage earners unable to afford a bank account
who need quick money; pawnshops capitalize on poor folks who
d to liquidate personal valuables in order to make rent. Fast-food
nese restaurants, through the thick bulletproof glass, capitalize on
Black poor by offering food-very unhealthy food that the ownadmittedly don't eat-to Blacks at a low monetary cost but with
health costs. And liquor stores, which can be found on nearly
y corner, capitalize on the depression and despair that come with
g poor and living in me.
.James once commented: "One thing 'bout the ghetto, you don't have
orry, it'll be there tomorrow." That said, where do you see yourself in
years?
l depends.
me have extremely high rates of diabetes, hypertension, heart dise
and asthma. Not only are my residents more likely to have illne
but because they are poor, they are more likely to be limited by t
conditions. Health issues prevent many from working or, at the l
limit their productivity-ultimately lowering income.
Asthma, lead poisoning, malnutrition, anemia, ear infectio
all of these are not only costly to treat or even diagnose, but all
to permanent impairments. So, for example, children who liv
me are twice as likely to suffer from lead poisoning, which m
many studies have shown has serious effects on the brain cau
learning problems, hyperactivity, coordination issues, aggression
ratic behavior, and brain damage. There is a lot of lead in much of
housing in me, especially in the projects, so children are expose
lead.
See, health is connected to everything. Both lead poisoning
asthma are severe problems on their own; however, they mushr
because they greatly diminish a child's school performance and
the leading causes of absenteeism. Not to mention many children
malnourished, which leads to headaches, lack of concentration,
quent colds, and fatigue. You would think that schools in me w
be more equipped to deal with these kind of issues, but they are a
ally given less funds. It's a systematic holocaust.
Every illness, especially untreated, makes it more difficult to
with an already extremely difficult environment. People who liv
BIGGER THAN HIP HOP
47
are more likely to work and live in conditions that are detrimental
heir health.
at do you-
, not to mention that just being poor-period-and the stress
poverty is a huge detriment to one's health.
r. King, in a book called Where Do ~Go From Here: Chaos or
munity? saidyou paraphrasing?
, I memorized it. It's that good. He said,
he children sclothes are too skimpy to protect them from the Chicago
ind, and a closer look reveals the mucus in the corners of their bright
yes, and you are reminded that vitamin pills and flu shots are luxuies which they can ill afford The "runny noses" of ghetto children
ecome a graphic symbol of medical neglect in a society which has
astered most of the diseases from which they will too soon die. There
s something wrong in a society which allows this to happen.
t do you think can be done about this?
ple need universal health care, for starters, to begin to climb out of
desolate pits of poverty. Right now, nearly all of my citizens, and
y Income, a
gram that provides benefits to those permanently disabled, and work
compensation, a program that provides benefits to workers who h
been injured on the job. Everyone who cannot work should rec
benefits. Right now, people who have been temporarily disabled f
injuries caused off the job cannot receive benefits from either progr
What's worse is that even those who are permanently disabled
mental illness, disability due to addiction, and hard-to-prove condit
like back pain-are not eligible to receive any benefits.
How much would all this cost?
That can't be determined for sure, but consider this: in 1999,
"poverty gap," which is the amount of money needed to raise all
incomes to at least the poverty line, was $65 billion. Yearly So
Security income is $500 billion. And the tax cut we got in 2001
$1.3 trillion. America has the loot.
Why are your schools, some of which I attended, failing?
Because poor Mrican-Americans are forced into me, my schools
almost completely segregated. Secondary and elementary schools
funded mainly through local taxes, so my schools have much fe
resources per child and significantly less money to fund education
My students are bringing noneducational issues like hunger,
mestic violence, homelessness, abuse, and many other personal pr
lems that demand greater resources. However, despite this, my scho
IGGER THIN HIP HOP
49
tting far less nnoney than, say, suburban schools, which don't
o deal with these issues.
ead you a passage? I came across it recently and it echoes this
go ahead.
from Savage Inequalities: Children in America/s Schools by Jonathan
on't tell students in this school about 'the dream. ' Go and look
a toilet here if you would like to know what life is like for stuts in this city. "
Before I leave, I do as Christopher asked and enter a boys' bathm. Four of the six toilets do not work. The toilet stalls, which are
n away by red and brown corrosion, have no doors. The toilets
e no seats. One has a rotted wooden stump. There are no paper
els and no soap. Near the door there is a loop of wire with an
ty toilet-paper roll.
"This," says Sister julia, "is the best school that we have in East St.
is."
lmost anyone who visits in the schools of East St. Louis, even for
ort time, comes away profoundly shaken. These are innocent chiln, after all. They have done nothing wrong. They have committed
hungry.
Do you think the U.S. government cares?
Follow the money, the budget, and you'll see what the governm
cares about. The U.S. budget represents not only political and
nomic interests, but moral ones as well. Don't believe what politic
tell you their priorities are, look at the budget and decide for yours
A child is born into poverty every forty-three seconds, and with
health insurance every minute in America. This is public informat
One of the most common misconceptions is that the governm
can't solve the poverty problem and that everything that could po
bly be done has been tried. The government can in fact solve
problem and it's not that expensive. The reality is they haven't b
willing to consider eradicating poverty in this country.
So what do we do?
Didn't Frederick Douglass say that "Power concedes nothing with
a demand. It never did and it never will."
Yeah, he did.
Well, there you go.
It's up to the people, in me and outside of me, to make this a
ority. Demand justice and true equality.
But they don't understand because of misrepresentation. That's w
I agreed to this interview.
IGGER THAN HIP HOP
51
One once said, "It's not a novelty, you can love your neighborhood
ut loving poverty." Do you agree with that?
definitely. Poverty is nothing to love. My image has been disd and misrepresented, though, so you have a white media that
glorifies and demonizes me at the same time, while never really
ssing who I am.
ke it you feel misrepresented?
ourse. There is me, as I am, with all of the institutional, political,
mic, and structural racist policies, and then there is my image
ails to address any of this in a real way.
e misrepresentation leads to a public consensus about my resi. They believe, both those who reside elsewhere and, sadly, those
reside in me,· that their poverty is their fault. That they are lazy,
ted, sexually promiscuous, and so on and so forth, and that this
reason for the poverty, when the reality, as I've touched upon, is
letely different. To give you a quick example, most people who
n me are not addicted to drugs or alcohol, don't engage in crimctivity, and are not on welfare. This would come as a shock to
who absorb the images on TV and in movies and the rhymes of
stream rappers.
erica is a very individualistic society. So, as a result, poor people
lamed for their poverty and the rich are credited with their
h, disregarding inheritance, class privilege, resources, etcetera. I
You can't pull yourself up by the bootstraps if you don't have a
damn shoes!
What about the violence in you?
Violence? [shrugs]
Well?
Was Nat Turner violent?
Uh, I'm not-
Reminds me of Nat Turner, because he was not violent, he was
sponding to slavery, which was violent. The conditions in which m
residents live are violent. There's always been this attempt to dem
nize my residents. They call survival after a hurricane "looting." Th
call protests against a system that keeps them poor "riots."
Look, man, as long as I'm around, there will be desperation. Wh
do you expect if you put the poorest folks together in one area, ta
away jobs, destroy social networks, police the hell out of them, hara
them-I mean, seriously, what do you expect?
Is there anything else that you'd like to tell the post-hip-hop generation
Organize, organize, organize. The time is now.
Thanks for your time.
Peace.
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