Rogers’ Tape Transcript Analysis Form Counselor Trainee: _____________________ Content Session Length: ______ Session Date: ___________ Intervention Alternative Intervention Skill(s) Used Alternative Specific Example of What might have said Differently Skill(s) Suggested Transcription (Exact dialogue, pauses, “sounds,” etc.) Example Transcript Counselor Trainee: __(Student’s Name Here)__________ Session Length: _30 minutes___ Content Transcription (Exact dialogue, pauses, “sounds,” etc.) Notice how nonverbal are identified within the verbatim. Intervention Skill(s) Used Include references to demonstrated research supported interventions as opposed to your personal opinion. Impact Effectiveness of Intervention Scaled 1-5 (1 being low, 5 highly effective) Session Date: __06/21/15___ Alternative Alternative Specific Example of What might have said Differently Always come up with something to show that you are stretching yourself and consideration of the identified skills for this assignment. Intervention Skill(s) Suggested Always come up with something to show that you are stretching yourself and consideration of the identified skills for this assignment. Client: Whew, what a day…I’m struggling. I mean… (fidgeting with bottom of sleeve and had down)…its really my marriage most of all. Therapist: Last session, you were concerned with your marriage and that continues to be a concern. Ummm….(cough) Can you help me understand what is troubling you when you consider your marriage? Summarization from previous session (Cormier & Cormier, 1998) 3 Help me understand more about the struggling. Reflective statement Summarization Clarification Reflection of Content Reflection of Feeling Word (i.e., “worried”; Cormier & Hackney, 2011) 2 You’re really worried about these decisions. Stick with content and keep feeling word expressed without asking a question Client: (Shifting in seat with head remaining low). Um, I don’t know. Really. It’s just that things are right. I need to make some decisions that’ll help me in the long run. I don’t know what to do…I’m a little hesitant to make a decision regarding my marriage. Therapist: Okay, so you’re really concerned, worried, and maybe a little hesitant about the consequences of the decisions you are making right now? URL for Viewing: http:www.abcdefg/hijk.com References Cormier, S., & Cormier, B. (1998). Interviewing strategies for helpers: Fundmental skills and cognitive behavioral interventions. Belmont, CA: Thomson Brooks/Cole Publishing Company. Cormier, S., & Hackney, H. L. (2011). Counseling strategies and interventions. Upper Saddle, NJ: Pearson Higher Education. [sil.] THE EVOLUTION OF PSYCHOTHERAPY A CONFERENCE DECEMBER 11-15, 19985 Phoenix, Arizona Copyright 1985 The following Workshop was videotaped at the Phoenix Civic Plaza on Wednesday, Dec. 11, 1985. DUE TO THE HIGHLY TECHNICAL NATURE OF THE MATERIAL AND IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF THE SUBJECTS, THIS PROGRAM SHOULD BE SHOWN ONLY TO PROFESSIONALS CONSISTING OF: PHYSICIANS, DENTIST, PSYCHOLOGISTS, MASTERS LEVEL MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS, OR GRADUATE STUDENTS IN ACCREDITED PROGRAMS IN THE ABOVE FIELDS. The client-centered approach SPEAKERS: CARL R. ROGERS, Ph.d. Co-Faculty: RUTH C. SANFORD, M.A. 00:40 Carl R. Rogers Now we have . . .okay? Ruth C. Sanford There's one thing I did want to say now we're coming up to this, uh, choice of, uh, volunteer, uh, client, uh, I would, and I'm sorry I should have said this before, it would be helpful if you had, could just, note down a few, uh, things about yourself, a few statements about yourself, a-, on a piece of paper with your name, uh, if you intend to, uh, come up and, uh, volunteer, uh, as a, uh, client for this interview. Uh, we should have given you a little more time for that, but, uh, maybe you can do it in a hurry. 01:15 Carl R. Rogers So we will take a break and those who are willing to volunteer for the interview you can meet Ruth over in this corner, uh, and we'll, we'll, get together again in 15 minutes at the outside, 10 minutes start back, okay? 01:40 [sil.] 02:05 Carl R. Rogers Okay. Uh, I don't know what might be of concern to you, but I'd certainly be glad to, to hear. 02:15 Peteranne Bissitt Well, um, my problem kinda is old and new together. I, um, lost a set of twins about two-and-a-half years ago, and for me, that was a first pregnancy and working on my career and whatnot, I kind of put the pregnancy aside, thinking when I'm done with my career, I'll have children. And so that first pregnancy didn't work out very well, and, with my age, I'm 35 now, as I'm getting older and I've been trying for two-and-a-half years to become pregnant and have not done so successfully. I've kind of, you know, feel one, like a failure, um, and I think it come from once I read a poem and the poem said that to have a child is to have your only chance of making a miracle with God. 03:10 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. Peteranne Bissitt And I never looked at it that way before, I always thought pregnancy was the pits, you were fat, you were ugly, and I didn't enjoy my pregnancy at all. And when I did start to enjoy it, that's when I lost the twins and so now I'm upset that I can't become pregnant, and it, but right now at this minute I could be and that's scary to me, too. 03:40 Carl R. Rogers Well, really it's sort of a double problem that you would like pregnancy to be something you would enjoy and, uh, yet when you begin to enjoy it you lost the twins. Uh, and now, it really is a confusing situation, isn't it though? Wanting a child very much, wanting that miracle and yet not being sure. Mm-hmm. 04:05 Peteranne Bissitt Well, I think I'm sure that I want that. Carl R. Rogers Okay. Peteranne Bissitt I'm, I'm more afraid that if I am pregnant this very minute, that there's loss down the road. 04:15 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. Ah. Mm-hmm. That's where the past comes in (crosstalk)that might end in tragedy again. 04:20 Peteranne Bissitt Right. Right. Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Peteranne Bissitt And it's one of those points now where every month I wait to see if I'm pregnant and every month I'm Carl R. Rogers That's a recurring issue. 04:35 Peteranne Bissitt Right. It never seems to get any better and I don't, I don't really discuss it with anybody. I don't talk to my husband about it, because he has the pain from the past as well. 04:45 Carl R. Rogers Uh huh, So it's something that really has been quiet bound up in you, where you haven't felt free to talk about it. 04:50 Peteranne Bissitt Right, and I guess I question myself in a lot of ways too as, if I had made attempts earlier would it have been easier. 05:00 Carl R. Rogers Should I have laid aside my career a little earlier and tried to become pregnant? 05:05 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, because now, I mean, when most of my friends are having children and raising them, I have a job to go to that's fun, and at four or five years ago, to me, you know, I'm out in the world, I'm making money, I'm doing a good job, but, now there's a lot of things that I don't have. Nobody to leave anything too, and it's it's a sad thing. Christmas is coming. It's probably on my mind more because I, uh, I would have had somebody that's two-and-a-half, I would have two little kids two-and-a-half years old. 05:40 Carl R. Rogers And so you're asking, did I make a mistake? Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. That's, I guess that's, that's a scary thought to think that your whole life has been a mistake along the way. 05:55 Carl R. Rogers Did I make a very grave error in not having made the attempt sooner? 06:00 Peteranne Bissitt Right. And I look at it that more and more things seem to play on it, the pressure from my family. Uh, I'm an only child, so consequently my, my mother always would, you know, wanted to have a grandchild. Uh, she has a terminal illness now and could possibly die, I mean, it could go on forever, for a long time, but, as if I haven't given them what they'd like, too. 06:25 Carl R. Rogers Mm. But there's a lot of pressure toward you must have a child, you must. 06:35 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, and I, but I guess I, there's, I think of so many things that go on with that, with me. It's, I, I believe you either win or you lose and to me right now I've lost. 06:50 Carl R. Rogers And that criteria, you feel, does win or lose, and you have lost? Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, to me, to me, I always, I play games, I do things to win. 06:55 Carl R. Rogers Oh, I see. Peteranne Bissitt And in the pregnancy, you know, I wanted to win, to have this child and instead I lost. And I don't like to play things that I can lose. 07:10 So that's one game, a very important game, that you feel you lost? 07:15 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. Carl R. Rogers And you're the kind that likes to win. 07:20 Peteranne Bissitt Definitely. Definitely. And I, I like to make people happy as well, and I know my husband, my parents, all those other people, would want, you know, a child, an offspring, a grandchild as well as I would like one. You know, it's not like I'm just trying to do it for somebody else, I think there's that part of me that says, you know, this is normal, this is proper, you lost twins. How can you replace, what can you do to have that? 07:55 Carl R. Rogers So you'd like to, not only satisfy yourself, but all these other people too. 08:00 Peteranne Bissitt I don't think everybody would be happy in the long run and me especially. 08:05 Carl R. Rogers It just means a tremendous lot. Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. I, I don't think there's anything that I could, if I, if I cannot have children, I guess I would have to deal with that, but I don't think there's anything I can replace that with. I don't think, career used to be extremely important to me and now that's not the ultimate thing in my life. 08:30 Carl R. Rogers So if you don't have a child, that really leaves a terrible gap. 08:35 Peteranne Bissitt A, yeah, a very big void for me. Carl R. Rogers A big void. Mmm. Peteranne Bissitt Right . I know I have a very loving, nice, wonderful husband, and I care about him a great deal, but there's that extra thing that we could share together, you know, out of the love that we do have, and somehow I feel cheated. 08:55 Carl R. Rogers You feel cheated out of something that would enrich your marriage as well as you? 09:05 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. 09:10 [sil.] 09:15 Peteranne Bissitt And like I said, with the possibility of being pregnant right now, there's just, it's like I don't want, I don't believe I'm telling a whole crowd of people this, but I don't really want to tell anybody this because, I'm afraid of, you know, of the loss and yet it bothers me tremendously. 09:35 Carl R. Rogers I can understand that. That it, uh, it's kind of thing of mentioning it might, might be superstitious or wrong or something. It might, might. 09:45 Peteranne Bissitt Well that and I guess if I am pregnant I would like it to be, nobody knows until I can really really tell and that maybe it's gonna last that time. 09:50 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that in many ways it's something you still wanna keep to yourself , and yet find yourself telling a lot of people. 10:05 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. As far as, you know, as telling anybody my, my possible condition, that I haven't done, and I don't know, it's something I'm not gonna tell my parents. I don't even think I'll tell my husband for quite a while. 10:25 Carl R. Rogers So it really is something highly personal and kept within and easier to talk about to strangers than it is to people that mean a lot to you. 10:30 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, because the people that mean a lot to me could get hurt again. 10:35 Carl R. Rogers You don't want to lead them on and then, (crosstalk)bingo, another tragedy. 10:40 Ms. Peterand And I. No. No. Not like the last one. 10:45 Carl R. Rogers It'll be very hard. 10:55 [sil.] 11:05 Peteranne Bissitt I, I don't know, I guess maybe I should just see what comes of it. You know, except if something good comes, fantastic, if something bad comes, then I'm hurt again. Nobody else is. 11:15 Carl R. Rogers Uh, I see. Uh-huh. If you keep it to yourself and it all works out then great for everybody. 11:25 Peteranne Bissitt Right. Carl R. Rogers If it's a tragedy again, that's for you alone. 11:30 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. I, I guess, maybe I think that I have some guilt left over from the last time. I think, whenever you, you know, even though it was a premature birth, if you lose a child I think you place some guilt on yourself, and um, I don't know, I guess I just do wondering if I shouldn't have done certain things and whatnot. 11:55 Carl R. Rogers Could I have made a difference, could I have done something differently? 12:00 Peteranne Bissitt Right. And I try to, you know, in my head say no, you, you had a less schedule than you usually have, you where more calm, you where resting more. I say all those things to myself, logically, but when you go through the loss , there's, and there's no answer, then you're kind of stuck with, well, I was the keeper and didn't do well. 12:20 Carl R. Rogers Uh-huh, uh-huh. So your mind says you were doing as well as you could possibly do, but something in you says well, but maybe, maybe you could have done something. You where the keeper and you did lose. 12:40 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. And I think that's, part of that though is the reason that I, I still want to have the child. Not only do I want one, but I fight back and say Hey, you know, this doesn't happen to me". 12:50 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I'm a winner. 12:55 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. And, and see that it comes again into things like, I've always had everything I wanted, you know. I was an only child, I was probably a little spoiled, uh, I had a job, I had a career, I've had money, I have a house, you know, I have a decent marriage. I have all the things that sometimes people make comments about of oh, now she has everything, and that one thing that I wanted I didn't get. 13:20 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So we look as though you'll get everything, not quite, not the important thing you want. 13:30 Peteranne Bissitt No, which then turns things into, for me into a failure aspect. Not doing well, of being the failure. 13:35 Carl R. Rogers Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So at some level, to yourself you're a failure. 13:45 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. But, I suppose all I can do is keep working at it maybe. Of course, then there's the biological time clock. And so not everything is in my corner. 14:05 Carl R. Rogers That's right. Peteranne Bissitt And usually I can work on things or put things into perspective and do things that I have some control, and this is something I don't have control of. 14:15 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. That's right. There's some things you can't manage, you can't manipulate. You can't control. 14:20 Peteranne Bissitt Nope, not this one. At least I don't see that I can. 14:25 Carl R. Rogers And you're the kind of person who is accustomed to controlling things, getting things your way. 14:30 Peteranne Bissitt Yes. Hasn't worked out bad so far, except for that aspect. 14:35 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. In a lot of ways that's worked fine but not here. 14:45 Peteranne Bissitt No. And I, I, there is no way to have the control. I mean, I don't know, if it's God or fate or whatever that's gonna make that determination but it, it's out of my control. (crosstalk) 15:00 Carl R. Rogers I didn't get the last. Peteranne Bissitt It's out of my control even, even though I have different kinds of, you know, medical support that say that I'm healthy and normal and that everything is fine, and you know, I go to a specialist at this time so I can try to make things work better. Uh, the things that used to working right anyway, so, you know, then I'm back inside myself again with well, what's wrong with me, why isn't this working. How hard can it be? 15:25 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. That seems to be evidence to you there must be something wrong with me. 15:30 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. There's nobody else's body that's not functioning correctly, its mine. 15:45 Carl R. Rogers So this body of yours is something that in this respect you really can't control. 15:50 Peteranne Bissitt Nope. And I mean that, and I do everything to even try, you know, I do everything the doctor says. I eat the right foods. I try stay in halfway decent shape so that I'm healthy. And even that, with the loss, nobody could understand how I would lose a child, being as healthy as I am. You know, I'm active and not the sickly type. 16:15 Carl R. Rogers But there's no reason at all for not having a child except that you don't have one. 16:20 Peteranne Bissitt So they tell me. But, uh, you know, no matter how logically the, even the doctor tells me, you know, it's a matter of time, it's a matter of time. Something's not functioning properly. Otherwise it would be right, it would be there. 16:40 Carl R. Rogers And so that brings that sense of failure, huh? 16:45 Peteranne Bissitt To me, yes. And I, I guess I want to succeed and I want everything that I want. And then I, then I look at things and I see that I would give up. I would rather give up my career to have a child, if I didn't have a house that's fine I could do something else, but, um, I can't seem to, to win at that aspect. 17:10 Carl R. Rogers If there were some sacrifice you could make in return for having a child, sure you' make it. 17:15 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, I would. I would. I would do whatever had to be done. You know, when I make my vows that if I do have a child I would be the best little parent, all this good stuff, but, which then . . . 17:35 Carl R. Rogers Really touches you that you just promise to do everything right. 17:40 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, I do. Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. If. Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, if. And, and I don't know without the, without the control, I just have to wait I guess. 18:00 Carl R. Rogers But it's hard not to have the control. 18:05 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, if I the control, you know, it would be done and everything would be fine and I'd push the clock back and I'd have a nice little family, a little boy, a little girl, everything would be perfect. 18:15 [sil.] 18:20 Carl R. Rogers That sounds as though there's some grieving over what might have been. Peteranne Bissitt Well, I, I think there is, to a degree. I don't think that, I think that I dealt with that loss fairly well, that, you know, it's not something that I totally dwell on, and yet with the thought of a pregnancy there's the thought of what happened. Um, with the thought of Christmas, there's always the thought of that we visit the grave, and all those things come up, and creates some sadness. 18:50 Carl R. Rogers That tragedy keeps being looped over again. 18:55 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. Carl R. Rogers Especially, perhaps, at this season. 19:00 [sil.] 19:05 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. Carl R. Rogers So the grief is still is still there. 19:10 Peteranne Bissitt Well, the gr-, I think the grief comes and goes. Now there's sometimes that are fine, and, you know, that is rational and logical to me, and then there is other times that, depending on where I am and whom I'm with, and what's about, and what children are there, you know, things pass through my mind. 19:30 Carl R. Rogers It can hit you. Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, it does, it comes and goes. 19:40 [sil.] 20:10 Peteranne Bissitt I had to say that you made it easy to talk about this, though. Carl R. Rogers I'm sorry? Peteranne Bissitt You've made it easy to talk about this. Somehow I, I get the feeling that you, uh, and I don't think that you can understand, I don't think that you can feel that same feeling, but I think that you can be empathetic with the situation. 20:25 Carl R. Rogers You know I can't feel it in my body what you feel in yours, but at least I have made it easier for you. 20:35 Peteranne Bissitt Yes. And, and just, you know, thinking about it and respect to my control and, I guess I've come to my own decision or conclusion that I gotta kinda just sit and wait and let what happens, happen. But . . . 20:50 Carl R. Rogers You realize I really can't control this, as much as I'm accustomed to controlling, as much as I'd like to be able to control it, I cannot control this. 21:00 Peteranne Bissitt No, no matter how hard I try. I can make the best efforts, but I can't control it completely. 21:10 [sil.] 21:15 Peteranne Bissitt And yet that that doesn't mean that I don't still, don't feel like, I've made some failure along the way. 21:20 Carl R. Rogers So that doesn't keep you from feeling something of a failure. 21:25 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, I'm, I mean, I can, I can rationalize and say I can't control, there's nothing I can do about it that's the way it's meant to be. And yet, down in here it still feels like well, there's something you could have done or should do or whatever. 21:40 Carl R. Rogers In some sense I've failed. 21:45 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, maybe not me. Maybe not me, exactly. 21:50 [sil.] 21:55 Peteranne Bissitt I don't, I don't . . . Carl R. Rogers Maybe not you. Peteranne Bissitt No, not me exactly. I mean, I'm not the only responsible, you know, I didn't have the control. 22:05 Carl R. Rogers I did what I could do so I'm not the failure. That isn't it exactly? 22:10 Peteranne Bissitt Well, I, I, I guess I know I'm not exactly the failure, but there's still that feeling inside me that says that something else could have been done. And maybe it's (crosstalk). 22:20 Carl R. Rogers It's a bodily feeling isn't it? 22:25 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, because it's not a thinking thing. 22:30 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. Peteranne Bissitt You know, because I realize that. Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. But something you in you says something might have been done. 22:40 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. Maybe it's the loss feeling. You know, maybe it's something that says I don't have this and I still want it. 22:45 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. And so it's failure of not being able to fulfill that. 22:55 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Feeling that you're not really fulfilled? 23:05 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. Not complete. 23:10 Carl R. Rogers Part of a real sadness you carry around with you? 23:15 Peteranne Bissitt I think it's a sadness and yet I think sometimes it, it helps me in some of the things I have to do and some of the things I do. 23:25 Carl R. Rogers Mm-hmm. 23:30 [sil.] 23:35 Carl R. Rogers Are you saying in some ways it's made you stronger, more able to meet life? Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, I think, um, through some of the things I've gone through, even with the relationship with my husband, I think, through that episode that we shared, there was allot of strength between the two. And even though there has not been allot of discussion, you know, as far as how we felt, in relation to the loss, I saw a side of my husband I'd never seen before, which showed me a great strength in him. 24:05 Carl R. Rogers So that, in spite of the grief and the loss, some good things emerged from it? 24:10 Peteranne Bissitt Oh, definitely. If, if anybody can say something good came from that. I think the, the love and the strength are, are good. I guess, I would just like to complete that, though by(crosstalk). 24:25 Carl R. Rogers (crosstalk) I'm sorry? Peteranne Bissitt I'd like to complete that though . . . Carl R. Rogers Yeah. Yeah. Peteranne Bissitt . . . by being able to give him a child. 24:30 Carl R. Rogers That's a very deep wish. 24:35 Peteranne Bissitt Yeah. Carl R. Rogers I see that our time is almost up, is there anything more you want to say? 24:40 Peteranne Bissitt No just, that I appreciated talking with you. 24:45 Carl R. Rogers Okay. Okay. Thank you. 24:50 Peteranne Bissitt Thank you. Carl R. Rogers Hold it, we will, 'cuz we may want to ask you questions as well me. Uh, after we've, uh, sat here for just a minute, uh, possibly you'd be willing to think back and say how the interview seemed to you. Then I'll say how it seemed to me, and maybe we could let them in, let them ask questions of us, would that be okay? 25:20 Peteranne Bissitt Sure. Carl R. Rogers Then we can, maybe Ruth can join us too, and we can all take part. You want to say how the interview seemed to you? 25:30 Peteranne Bissitt When I first came up here, I felt very, very tight, and I know that I cross my legs allot when I sit and somebody may interpret that as closed. I think this is just comfortable for me. I know that after we took the minute to, kind of, get a little composure I felt a lot better. And then as we started to talk, just your facial expression and some of the things that you repeated back to me, made me understand some of the things that I was feeling and saying, as well as, I think, I became more comfortable because I remember, I remember touching my chest and when I was talking about my feeling, and it wasn't an angry touching, or an upset, I was kind of warm and soft, and I felt that way. Um, and, I guess, the only thing else that I can say is as I think about it now, and since I teach at an university level about you, and some of my students always wonder how, you know, where do you move and how do you go with just uhhuh and moving on, um, I found it very easy to want to talk with you. I, I didn't feel that I had to prove myself, that you had any judgmental type of attitudes toward, towards me, and I felt very comfortable. 26:55 Carl R. Rogers Okay, I think, uh, as far as I'm concerned, I felt, um, a little clumsy at first in getting into your world, but then I began to feel more and more comfortably there, as though I really did understand. And, um, I don't know, there was a feeling of being really privileged to, uh, enter into your sense of loss, and what you've been through, and your hopes, and then your characteristic of being the one in control, and that, here you'd run into something you couldn't control, and, uh, I too was moved, in that, I'd not sure that I know all of the significance, but you putting your hand on your chest was, uh, it was as though your body was speaking, and I was trying to hear that. Uh, I felt that, um, in terms of, uh, movement, uh, yes, there was some movement, not, not fantastic but I, it was, it was, it was a half hour of exploration. That's what it seemed like to me, of getting into different aspects of it. And I felt, um, I felt good about the relationship. One thing too, because they have turned down the houselights so, we were just alone for me. 28:35 Peteranne Bissitt Me, too. Carl R. Rogers Uh, there just was no one there. And, uh, I felt very comfortable in the relationship. Ruth, do you have any comments you want to make or do you want to open up the audience? 28:55 [sil.] 29:00 Ruth C. Sandford One of the things which seemed important to me was, uh, the use of silence. Um, the way in which, um, Peteranne was silent, but it seemed to be a working silence. And twice I felt that, because she came to something different at the end of the silence. And, uh, it was not interrupted. I don't know whether Peteranne felt that or not. 29:25 Peteranne Bissitt I know that when the silence occurred, I know that I was kind of trying to think and, and feel what was going on with me. And so, I guess I was trying to draw some kind of closure to where we had been and find what I'd touched upon. 29:45 Ruth C. Sandford To get, uh, more familiar and comfortable with the, your own feelings at that time. 29:50 Peteranne Bissitt Yes. 29:55 Carl R. Rogers Yes, I felt those where, uh, definitely your silences and that you were, you were quiet obviously working during the silent, uh, during the silences. 30:05 Peteranne Bissitt I, I think part of the time too, I was looking into your face, into your eyes, to see, you know, what I was getting from you. And I think that helped me as well to come to some kind of decisions or conclusions, based on the niceness that I saw coming back. 30:20 Carl R. Rogers Hmm. 30:25 Ruth C. Sandford I think I, uh, have a question Peteranne, if you're willing. Uh, it seemed two or three times you came around to that this is a real loss and there was something wrong, and somehow you'd failed, uh, and yet, another time it, it wasn't all my fault, but there's something wrong. And, uh, I was sensing for myself some feeling of, of, angry about the loss and not being able to do anything about it. Was that off the track? 31:05 Peteranne Bissitt No, there's definitely, there's definitely some anger that I can't control that situation, or could not control it at the time, but I think there's always the guilt. If there was a, if a doctor could say you lost these twins because that would be acceptable. They can't give me an answer. You know, it's just a premature birth, and so you're kinda left without an answer, and so with that, I think I have feelings of, maybe I shouldn't have washed the dishes or maybe I shouldn't have swept the floor, but I don't know the answer. And so I think that's something that's gonna be out there forever, unclear. 31:45 Carl R. Rogers Now if you'll turn up the house lights some, we can get questions from the, from the audience. 31:50 [sil.] 31:55 Carl R. Rogers I don't know that I can see well enough to really select people, but if you'd come to the center microphone if you do have questions, as well as any microphones and you can ask questions of me or of Peteranne or just make comments, whatever. 32:15 [sil.] 32:20 UNKNOWN Is the mic on? Can you hear me? It's not on. 32:25 Carl R. Rogers Turn on the center mics please? 32:30 UNKNOWN There it is. Carl R. Rogers Okay, try it again. UNKNOWN Peteranne, this is a question for you. Um, and, Carl maybe you can comment on it. As I watched the interview, um, I had a sense that when you started out you were at one level of talking about your experiences in the moment, your fears about being pregnant, um, and the excitement and both the fear about that. And as the interview progressed, um, my sense was that you went from a stance where you where more, earlier on you'd go, I felt you where blaming yourself a lot, and calling yourself a failure, and I noticed, or I felt, that during, toward the end of the interview you seem to be more able to entertain the notion that something was wrong and that it was not necessarily you who were wrong, and to me that felt like one of those, maybe not so miniscule changes that someone was commenting about earlier on in the therapy, and I wonder if you would make some comments to that. 33:25 Peteranne Bissitt The, you want me to make comments to the feeling . . . UNKNOWN That, did you fel that? Was that an accurate perception, or did you see a change in the beginning to the end? 33:35 Peteranne Bissitt I, I think I saw a change in the beginning of the end, to, I started out with my narrow scope of that I'd had a loss, and then, I think ,there are so many more things that play in on that I saw myself changing to, not only with a loss aspect, but all these other things that affect me . . . 33:50 UNKNOWN Uh-huh. Peteranne Bissitt . . . in relation to the loss, and yes, I don't think that it is my fault. 33:55 UNKNOWN Uh-huh. Peteranne Bissitt You know, and I think I, I tend to blame myself. I do, and I'm not sure that I'll ever get over blaming myself, and yet at this very moment, I realize more and more that it's, there's nothing I can do about that. 34:10 UNKNOWN I guess, I felt the shift from blame to loss during the course of the interview. 34:15 Carl R. Rogers I, I was impressed too, if I can comment on that, when you, when you, uh, said toward the end that, uh, when I said "You're a failure." And you said "No, not me exactly." That was, uh, very impressive, 'cuz I felt you where realizing no, there was a limited, limited part of anything . . . your part in it, as far as any blame, any possible blame was concerned, was very very limited, and that it wasn't the failure of you. 34:50 UNKNOWN Yes. Um, I have been, uh, a little puzzled by the remark you made, uh, Peteranne, to, uh, Carl Rogers about him being not empathetic. Uh, and I think I understood that and, uh, Mr. Rogers you tried to clarify that by saying, uh, "I did not understand, I'm not understanding, with my body, what you are feeling in your body." But I don't think Peteranne was talking about your bodies being different. I think she was talking, she was just strictly saying that you where not really understanding what she was feeling. 35:35 Peteranne Bissitt (inaudible ) 35:39 UNKNOWN (crosstalk)I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm going to be very presumptuous, uh, and I hope you will forgive me for doing so. But I think what you where saying, Peteranne, is that, you made a decision years ago to have a career, rather than have children, and now, you're 35, and your biological clock is ticking away, and the guilt you are feeling, I think, is about having made that decision and there's nothing you can do. You are willing to trade anything you have, to have not made that decision, but you made that decision years ago, and you don't know what to do with it. Doctors, if the doctors tell you, you know, you lost your babies for this or that, uh, you're looking for an answer, and in fact you have the answer. 36:40 [sil.] 36:45 Carl R. Rogers Do have any comments you want to make or not? Peteranne Bissitt Yeah, I'm about to make a couple. One, when I made the comment to Dr. Rogers, I think I was, I, was coming to a point of, of thinking, that this is, and this is gonna sound terrible and sexist, but this is a woman's loss that you could not, you know, understand that aspect and not, and it wasn't that I didn't think you were empathetic with me, but that kind of a feeling. The other aspect about feeling guilty about my career, definitely. I feel that way to a degree, and I know that, and yet, um, if I had it to do all over again, knowing (crosstalk)what I know now I might change it. 37:15 UNKNOWN Would you? Would you? 37:20 Peteranne Bissitt Knowing what I know now, I might change it. UNKNOWN Right. Peteranne Bissitt But I'm now positive that I would, because I, what I gained and what I am is important to me. It's just not as important at this point, because what I want I can't have. And I think that's what draws it out in me the most is that, now I want this, and I can't have it. And so yes, I'm angry that I did this, but I'm not sure that I would change that. 37:40 UNKNOWN Okay, you are angry that this, and I think that decision you did years ago, was the decision about, the word that comes to my mind is a selfish decision, when now (crosstalk)you would like . . . I'm sorry, all right, all right. 38:05 Carl R. Rogers I think what they're, I think what the audience is reacting to, is the finality of your judgment about this, as though, here is the real truth. 38:15 UNKNOWN Okay. Well, I think from confronting some part of our decisions, and I'm not saying that decision you made was wrong, I'm not saying that at all. But I think by facing though, the, this, the fact you made some decision years ago, um, anyway, there's nothing much you can say. 38:40 Carl R. Rogers I think that most of what you've said, she already said in her, in her interview. But then when you sum it up in a very final way, as though here it is, that, I think it's the tone of voice that rubs people the wrong way. 38:55 UNKNOWN Maybe. I'm sorry. Peteranne Bissitt And I guess I look at it that I'm entitled to his opinion. I would give him that much. 39:00 Ruth C. Sandford I was a bit . . . 39:05 Peteranne Bissitt No, I didn't mean that nasty. I, I mean, I would, I could understand his side. 39:10 Carl R. Rogers Also, also, I was, I don't know, I really did understand when you where saying, yes it was a, it was a woman's problem, I couldn't fully understand it, no matter what. Just my physiological point of view. 39:20 UNKNOWN I was very struck that, uh, most of the time Dr. Rogers, the words that you used when you talked back to Peteranne where her words, and I was thinking about the way I do therapy where I often change the words, or say something different, and the feeling that I began to get was that that was a very effective way of tuning into you, Peteranne, in terms of just that flow of real positive energy and love between you, because you were hearing, very explicitly, the same things that you had said, said in a very sympathetic and loving way. When you talked about Dr. Rogers looking you, or you looking at his eyes and his face, and experiencing that kind of feeling, I certainly experienced that in the audience, as well. So I guess my question really was for you, Peteranne, was what that felt like for you, to hear your words coming back to you and not something in addition, particularly during the first part of the interview. 40:20 Peteranne Bissitt I used to always think that that would be frustrating, but in that experience, I think it made things clearer and it pointed out to me what I was thinking and feeling and saying, that maybe sometimes I speak and don't really think what I say, and it helped me to understand. 40:40 Carl R. Rogers One, one thing I would say on that is, you're quite right there was more of that at the first of the interview and had we gone on to other interviews, probably I, I would have used less of her words, it would have been more catching the underlying feelings. Some of that was beginning to go on. Um, I, my, my intent in the interview was to really be a companion to Peteranne in her world, in any way I can get inside that world is okay by me, and sometimes it is by, uh, repeating , sometimes it's by trying to sense the feeling that underlies the words. Um, but I, but I do want to be enough of a companion to the client so that the client feels released to go forward. And, um, also, I want to make the relationship so safe that things that can't be said, can be said, and feelings that can't be experienced, can, that cannot be experienced can be experienced in the relationship. And, um, that is my intent. Uh, we only had half an hour's worth so, uh, only to some degree was that, uh, could that be achieved. 42:10 UNKNOWN Dr. Rogers, um, it seems to me that, that when I heard Virginia Cetera (ph) speak this morning and later on heard Ernest Rosling (ph) and, and now you, that, that all are making reference to kind of a physically experiencing self that's somehow separate from, from the intellect, uh, and that sometimes the intellect, in its physically experiencing self, aren't as close of friends as they might be. Um, and now we all know that, that we spend small fortunes and many, many hours developing that kinda intellectual self. Um, could you speak to the development of that physical, experiencing self? 42:55 Carl R. Rogers Now let me say first that I think you're quite right that, um, our intellectual processes often go off in one direction and our experiences in another And they were one or two small examples of that in this where, your mind was telling you your not guilty, for example, and yet you experienced guilt. Uh, I think that, uh, our educational institutions do a great deal to help us develop persons who, uh, are guided by intellect and rational thought and so on, and who often get further and further from the actual things that they're experiencing, and it is that gap which makes for a great deal of, uh, psychological difficulty and maladjustment. Um, I, I think there is no fundamental reason why we couldn't be educated to trust our experience as well as our intellect, but unfortunately, uh, that's not often the case, and many of us grow up to trust the intellect and the rational and the reasoning, and get quite out of touch with what we're actually experiencing, so that, uh, yes I do feel like it's an important thing, and in, in something that probably ties together a great many rather different therapeutic points of view. Which reminds me of one other thing I want to say about my style in responding to the client. I'm not saying that's the way you should respond. Uh, I feel that, uh, each person has to develop their own mode of therapy. Uh, my feeling is, if you, uh, I'll put it very specifically, if you record your interviews and study them later, you will find things that you do that are very helpful, perhaps they're very specific to you. You'll also find that you do that really don't seem to advance the process at all, uh, and that perhaps get in the way of it, and those you can drop. So, that I'm not talking about just doing what you feel like doing, but after carefully studying what you do, then gradually developing your own way of being with another person, which is helpful. And that, I think is, uh, I don't, I don't ask anybody to do what I do, I do it because that's good, that's the way I found of being helpful to people. Your way may, might be different, but examine what you do so as to make sure what you're doing is helpful and not unhelpful. 45:40 UNKNOWN At, at some point, uh, at some point along the interview there seemed to be a, and it was exciting to me to hear, uh, a sort of a change of valance (ph) , whereby this tragic event began to take on some positive aspects. I think Peteranne mentioned that she saw a different side of her husband, uh, a sense of strength, and I was just wondering how each of you experienced that, whether there was anything that either of your experiences that annotated that change and, and was there any selectivity in how you were reflecting back the, the information that Peteranne was giving you? 46:35 [sil.] 46:40 Peteranne Bissitt Uh, my comment would be that I, I believe we were talking about failure aspect, and we were talking about the loss, and it came to me as it did then and does periodically, that there was some very good moments, even though it was tragic, and that makes me feel good. That may have even been when I put my hand on my chest, I'm not sure, it may have been in the same area. But there are some very good points of that, and I guess, I'm not exactly sure how we got there, except I think we were talking about the failure aspect and I think, I, I'm not totally a failure, and that there are some good things that came from that, and that I helped with those and learned some things through those. 47:20 Carl R. Rogers I just wouldn't be sure at this moment how we arrived at that point. I'd have to see the video tape or listen to the recording to, to find out. But, uh, and I, I certainly felt that shift in evaluation of it, but I wouldn't want to, um, but, both sides were there, that is, the grief and the loss and the tragedy, and the fact that some good things came out of it, and I want to be respectful of both sides. But it is true that that positive side came out. 47:55 UNKNOWN I saw the interview as starting out, uh, broadening in scope as it went on, becoming more exploratory, and more things were dealt with. But I guess, Peteranne, my concern is that you will go on exploring, uh, the scope will broaden. Do you think that the client's end of the approach (ph) would be enough to resolve your conflicts? 48:20 Peteranne Bissitt I think that had we had more time or further interviews that we could have explored the avenues that I mentioned. I think they all play a part for me and maybe it did seem like it broadened, and yet, I think those where things that I felt more safe to bring in, that this bothers me too and so does this in relation to that. And I would hope that we would eventually deal with those and I could come to some closure on them. 48:45 UNKNOWN Thank you for that. But I guess my further concern would be that you were a very vocal client, you could say what you wanted to say, and you had, you had all your feelings out in the open. I have to go back to a culture, in So-, I have to go back to South Africa, and I know that most of the clients that I will work with won't be able to express themselves that well. Dr. Rogers, what do I do? 49:15 [sil.] 49:20 Carl R. Rogers I think I can answer that very briefly, but it's not easy to put into effect. You can be very, very present to your clients. I think, to be really present in the relationship, is one of the keys to therapy. How you will be present, I don't know. It's quiet true that Peteranne was a very articulate person, uh, but the difference between and articulate person and a very silent person, uh, isn't all that great. I, I recently had occasion to go over the, um, some of the recorded interviews that I held with a schizophrenic client, and they, they were doing our research on working with schizophrenics, and the length of some of those silences, 16 minutes of silence, my God, um, and yet, that was a working silence and at the end of that some very important things came out. I guess I would say that the significant themes in any interview are usually very few, very few. They can be stated in a few sentences. And some people who are very silent and not articulate, and non-verbal, may only utter a few sentences during the time you have with them, but if you've made it a safe place, a place where they can feel free, those sentences will have real significance. The more articulate person also says a few very significant things, but also gives many of the details and helps, helps us to understand the context and so on. Uh, but the difference between dealing with an inarticulate and an articulate client is not as great as it sometimes, uh, supposed to be, in my experience. 51:10 UNKNOWN Thank you. 51:15 [sil.] 51:20 UNKNOWN The primary thing I've come to this conference looking for is, uh, commonalities between one practitioner and another, and I think I saw the, saw one of those today. In the hour before this I sat in with Dr. Ernest Rossi talking about hypnotherapy, and he emphasized there, uh, the minute rapport between the therapist and client. Uh, I saw you doing it. Uh, very much in tune, I, I want to use the word larger than empathy, um, empathy seems to me to relate to the content and the emotion. What I saw was in, in you're very physical processes, I sense an exquisite sense of timing and skill that, uh, that I don't do in sessions when I am nervous, that I didn't do when I was less experienced. Uh, it seems to me that perhaps what you do well is something that hypnotherapist have put under the microscope and talked about. Um, have you ever thought of yourself as doing something very much like hypnotherapy? Have you ever analyzed in that, when you talk about analyzing the minute moment-to-moment fluctuations, are you aware of your sense of timing, of your respect for her, uh, broken eye contact while she's thinking, and you, you recognize it? Uh, I don't know this in any Rogerian therapy I've ever been taught. 52:45 Carl R. Rogers I guess, I would say that, um, I've come to place a larger and larger emphasis on the intuitive aspect of the relationship. I don't know that that was, uh, you feel you saw some of that here, I'm not sure. Um, but I, I do feel that, uh, is one commonality that I share with, uh, the work of Erickson for example. Uh, I, I am not one who pays attention to things to, like you said the broken eye contact and so on. Uh, I'm sure I take account of that in some intuitive level, but no that's not something I think about, and I'm not sure that it's helpful to think about it. People differ on that. Uh, at any rate, I, um, appreciate your comment and I applaud your search for finding some of the commonalities, because I think they are commonalities between different therapists and different therapeutic, uh, points of view. 54:00 UNKNOWN I thought I detected throughout a large portion of the session, a, an emotional message, in the shakiness of Peteranne's voice, and my question to you, Dr. Rogers, is, was there a specific reason why you chose to respond to her words, as was mentioned earlier, you, you responded very often in just, in her words, and you did not choose to respond to the non-verbal message that she was giving you in her shaky voice? I wonder if there was a reason for your making that choice? 54:40 I guess I responded to it in my way, I certainly noticed the shakiness in, in her voice, which came and went, but I, I responded to it in different ways. I remember at one point saying that, "that was very, very hard" and, um, uh, I was responding to the fact that, uh, she was close to some very deep emotions. I might have responded differently, or perhaps better, but I was not unaware of what you're talking about. Do you have any comment on that, Peteranne? 55:10 Peteranne Bissitt Not really, although I knew that I had tears in my eyes, and I know that I had the shaky response, and yet I felt that I was being responded to and being allowed to do those things. 55:25 Carl R. Rogers Perhaps one more question of the evening. Is there another question? 55:30 UNKNOWN Yes. Um, I, the picture that you get on the screen is a little different than I get when I'm looking right here, but when you where first starting and when I was looking at, uh, Peteranne, I was seeing her face and I was seeing the colors that she chose to wear and my first impression was, this is a woman in mourning, and I'm wondering if sometimes I have (crosstalk). 55:50 Peteranne Bissitt My luggage didn't arrive. This is what I flew in yesterday. 55:55 UNKNOWN Okay. I can often be wrong with my wonderings, and I'm wondering, Dr. Rogers, if you ever have those kinds of first impressions and do you wonder out loud about them with your clients at all? 56:15 Carl R. Rogers I guess I'd put it more broadly. Uh, some quick impression I probably don't voice, any persistent feeling, if I'd felt for example that, uh, uh, she was always on the verge of tears or something like that, yes I would be, and, wait a minute, any persistent feeling in myself, I would express, so that if I became concerned, or, uh, had a certain feeling, yes I would express that to her. Um, but, um, in wonderings of the sort that you'd mentioning, I don't do much of that, uh, maybe a loss to me. But, uh, uh, I was really, for example, to be specific, I really was not aware that, uh, to begin we talked about her loss she was also wearing dark clothing, and so I'm quite interested in finding, well, that's due to lack of luggage, and not necessarily due to choice. So I think, uh, such wonderings perhaps are useful, but, uh, they can be overdone. I think perhaps now we've talked enough about the interview, and I certainly appreciate, um, Peteranne Bissett very much (inaudible ). 57:40 [sil.]
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